Vague, All-Encompassing, Open-Ended Job Descriptions
So a friend of mine says I should go to an engineering job fair and apply for a job as a Systems Engineer. He says they don't need a college degree. I was skeptical and asked for more information, and he sent me this document from hell, which uses a thousand words to say nothing. From the description of "systems", the world, and every person and thing in it could qualify as something that a Systems Engineer is supposed to fix. Reading this, anyone would think you spin a roulette wheel to decide what your job description is in the morning. It would go something like this:
Walk into job fair.
"Hi, I have no training or experience, and I cannot visualize any tasks I would actually do in order to design a 'system', but I'd like to design your 'systems', whatever they are."
"You're hired!"
Week three of the job.
"Matt, I notice you've been sitting motionless in your cubicle for three weeks. How's that 'system' we gave you to design? Have you started it?"
"No, I have no idea how to start it. I've spent the last three weeks on the phone asking what this product is, what it does, who it's for, why anyone wants it, which areas of knowledge apply to it, and any kind of concrete example of how to fulfill my job description. Then I spent the rest of the time looking up the words they used to answer me."
"You're fired."
I don't want a repeat of last spring. I decided to challenge myself, so I accepted a job as a "project manager". I was supposed to figure out for myself how to run their business, when I knew nothing about their industry. "Sure!" my employer said. "You can absolutely do this! No problem!" From beginning to end, it was an unmitigated disaster of relentless failure-- the equivalent of flailing one's limbs at the air. "We're not sure what tasks you should do or how you should go about them. Just tell us what's wrong with our company and how to fix it." That's basically any job with a vague job description.
Comments
rikhei on Feb. 1, 2008 6:45 PM
I'm amazed to hear that systems engineering doesn't require a college degree, since Anne is, if I recall, a systems engineer, and she has a master's degree in systems engineering.
matt-arnold on Feb. 1, 2008 6:45 PM
Well, he says the Ssytems Engineers at this company either don't have degrees, or have degrees in things like Underwater Basket Weaving. Believe me, no one was as incredulous as I was.
stormgren on Feb. 1, 2008 9:29 PM
That is not a place I would ever work for if I could ever help it.
A real systems engineer can, will, and should have a actual engineering education.
Whoever tried to point you in that direction needs to seriously examine their worldview.
At least you seem to be seeing it for what it is.
thatguychuck on Feb. 1, 2008 7:15 PM
"Hi, I have no training or experience, and I cannot visualize any tasks I would actually do in order to design a 'system', but I'd like to design your 'systems', whatever they are."
Then I would not suggest applying to be a systems engineer. The document you linked to is *not* something low level - this is for a high level position that likely requires a good deal of experience. This is the type of thing I've been going to school for at U of M. I'm doing fantastic in my classes, I'm learning a lot, and I'm not yet at a level where I could do what this document requires. It's one of the places I'm working toward getting to in the future.
It's possible that certain companies don't require their systems engineers to have a degree, but they won't be basing the job description on the .pdf you were given.
If you want to go into business but don't know how to run a business, you may need do quite a lot of research. Project management isn't something that comes naturally - it's a learned skill that has specific parameters.
You'll have to do research into any industry you want to go in to make sure it's something a) you can do, and b) you want to do.
Taking an Intro to Business course at a local college may not be a bad idea if you want to get your feet wet with management. Intro is the place to start. Good luck!
matt-arnold on Feb. 1, 2008 7:39 PM
Of course I'm not going to apply. It just amazes me how some people have told me that the power of positive thinking is a substitute for qualifications.
I'm really hoping I won't have to go into business, and will hold out against it as long as possible while I figure out what I want to do. Unfortunately, business seems to be where the bulk of demand is.
elizilla on Feb. 1, 2008 7:38 PM
I'm sure there are people out there with a job title of "Systems Engineer" that do not have Engineering degrees. Think about the different types of engineers - is there really any reason to think that the guy who drives the train, can also design a suspension bridge? And what is a "System" anyway? This isn't Lobjan - you're just lumping together two words that can each have widely varying definitions.
Therefore you cannot assume that a job title of "Systems Engineer" in one place has any equivalency to some other company's jobs of the same title, or with any degree program at any school. Lots of companies use fancy job titles in lieu of money; some people will work for less if you make them feel important enough. Other companies use job titles to make their employees sound more impressive to their customers. Customers would much rather talk to a "Senior Engineer IV, Product Specialist" than to a "Technical Support Representative" but in each case, you're just describing some hopefully-brainy geek on the phone.
drkelso on Feb. 2, 2008 1:51 AM
It's like becoming a software engineer without having gone to college. You can do it, you just have to have the initiative to learn on your own. But either way, until you learn the core foundation principles, you're not going to do as well. And that takes time.
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